....you would have been burned alive or killed in some way a few centuries ago for saying what you said here and that's the truth! Your fortunate you weren't a Jew in WW2 when the Pope help Hilter exterminate over 200,000 Jews. Your fortunate you weren't brough up in a Catholic school in the last few decades you might have been molested and have mental problems by now. Your fortunate.........

There is a BIG difference between disagreement and bashing. BTW, I have already said to go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the official document of polity and doctrine of the Catholic Church) to find the answers. You will note that EVERYTHING in it is backed up with direct reference to Scripture.

As I have stated before and I state here. History shows that the Catholic Church defended and spread Christianity in spite of and often in opposition to the ancestors of most modern Fundamentalists whose ancestors were picking fleas, worshipping rocks and trees and participating in human sacrifice.

I would again say that I'm not bashing, but putting a point of view across. God's word is taken out of context so much these day and Mans writings and views are on many occasions put before the Bible. My point was only to say that we must correctly understand Gods word. That does not mean just read it. For example there are many study reference books out there, for a correct understanding of Greek or Hebrew words. Finding the correct words enable you to understand a passage of scripture!!! Weather you like it or not there are things that are not all there in the Catholic church. But I say again that is the situation in allot of churches. There is no perfect church, like there is no perfect Christian!!!!!!

Just for the record I do not think the pug is trying to be anything but fair here. As long as man is involved in religion there will always be room for improvement.

Pugwash: You mention reading the Koine and Hebrew? What do you think I did while I was in Seminary? BTW, NO, there aren't a few things "not all there" in may churches; there are a few things that are "not all there" in ALL churches. You have enjoined me to learn about Scripture. I did, in a Protestant seminary...I ask the same of you, read the documents of the Catholic Church (as backed up by Scripture) before you tell us Catholics what it is that you are so sure we do. I suggest that we don't do a lot of the things that we have been alleged to do. The Catechism is a big book of every single doctrinal issue withing the Catholic Church. It has been compiled by the combined work of study in Scripture for the entire history of the Church. There is nothing in the Catechism that is contrary to Scripture...if there was there would be no "nihil obstat" or "imprimator" on the work. We don't just make things up as we go along, we use the collected wisdom of the ages on God through his Word.

Pugwash: I just re-read your original post...and it was indeed a deliberate slam against the church. Your last remark in the post says that we make a doctrine, then back it up. That couldn't be more incorrect. The doctrine comes out of the Scripture, not the other way around.

Bear with me. The exhange went as follows: PUGWASHs basic tenets: 1. "All churches fail in certain areas, you only have to look at Paul's writings to see that!" 2. "the Catholic Church has created problems, due to the belief that anything that comes from the Church is right." 3. I am "a hater of incorrect Bible teachings which are contrary to God's Holy Word!!!!" 4. "To be upset with'Catholic Bashings' would suggest that maybe you think that nothing has or will be ever wrong with the Catholic Church!!!" AND: 5. "I'm not bashing, but putting a point of view across. God's word is taken out of context so much these day and Mans writings and views are on many occasions put before the BibleWhether you like it or not there are things that are not all there in the Catholic churchThere is no perfect church, like there is no perfect Christian!!!!!!" Again, there is no attempt here to discern doctrine as conveyed formally through Cathechism. The statements above therefore clearly address matters of doctrine in the Catholic Church, the apparent premise being that said doctrine, in the hands of capricious and fallible human beings, deviates from the Bible, presumably so manifested in Church teachings. Just as troublesome: the conceit that bashing religious doctrine is reasonable in matters of organized religion (the implication extended to politics, race, national origin, etc.), on the basis that institutions are conducted by fallible human beings, is rather aberrant. AUTZENMAVENs reply, if I may, bears repeating: "doctrine (in the Catholic Church) comes out of the Scripture, not the other way around." Further: "The Catechism (contains) every single doctrinal issue within the Catholic Church. It (represents) study in Scripture for the entire history of the Churchnothing in the Catechismis contrary to Scripture...if there was there would be no nihil obstat or imprimatur on the work. We don't just make things up as we go along; we use the collected wisdom of the ages on God through his Word."

I admire your faith in the Catholic Church, but I feel that you depend too much on the catechism and not on the word of God. (Yes I know you keep on telling me that the catechism is based scripturally, lets agree to disagree on that!) Im going to open up a wound in the Catholic Church, that in its self proves my point! The Catholic Church has areas in its life that are not the teachings of the bible and I believe even the Catechism would agree with that!!!(As do other beliefs and churches.) I also believe that there are practices even today that are being used as Gods way, that are not!!!!! The Catholic Church has been responsible for more deaths and tortures than any other faith or belief! People of the Past have read the word of God and have seen that there was much deception, so they spoke out against the church and its teachings. The Catholic Church ordered them to be arrested, they were tortured, burnt alive and killed if they did not recant! The Anabaptist received much of this and there is much documented proof to back this up. You say that I have been wrong in my views and that I need to read the catechism to truly understand the beliefs and standards. WHY? Gods word is enough!!! It is admirable that the Catholic Church has set out standards and doctrinal statements. But to say that all are correct and there is no error in them is a bold statement. Man has been proven to be fallible time after time, especially when it comes to the word of God and its teachings!! I will study more into what you say about the Catechism and Im sure I will write things that you disagree with.(But I will do it with a level head!) There are lots of books out by scholars that have clearly stated problems Biblically in the Catholic Church. If I read the Catechism, will you read some of those books, with a level head?????? I know you will dislike what I have written but you all certainly dont mind dishing stuff out to me!!!! I trust that you take this as a review and not as a bashing, as you all like to say that is what Im doing. You can have all the degrees in the world, all the qualifications in the world, but that doesnt mean you are an authority in it. Again I say we must as followers of Christ must follow and understand Gods word. I have failures and I have messed up as Im sure every reviewer has, why shouldnt the Catholic Church. Why should the Catholic Church be considered infallible!!!!

Once again, Doctrine should be clearly discerned before reading into it what is not there. Through religious indoctrination, Catholics achieve said level of clear discernment. Reading the Cathechism should be seen, if need be, as an oppotunity to identify and rebut any propositions that lead to abuse or religious intolerance. Still, there apparently will be some unable to be receptive and fair to the notion of the Catholic doctrine - which condition demands clarification on the grounds that wrongheaded information closes avenues of mutual understanding. Pugwash's position could be construed as attributing historic errors to the Credo of all Catholics in general. Whereas, for others, familiarity with the Cathechism will allow a clearer understanding of Catholic "beliefs and standards." No other expectation is involved and, certainly, through said understanding can come dialogue, without having to compromise one's own convictions; consequently, God's word may be shared by all parties. Sadly, there remains in today's earlier posting the erroneous refrain that Catholics hold "...the Catholic Church (to be) infallible!!!!" which is different from asserting that ours is 'the One True Faith,' to which claim we should be entitled. It seems clear that, unless open minded attitudes come into play, it is pointless to pursue this dialogue.

Once again, Doctrine should be clearly discerned before reading into it what is not there. Through religious indoctrination, Catholics achieve said level of clear discernment. Reading the Cathechism should be seen, if need be, as an oppotunity to identify and rebut any propositions that allegedly lead to abuse or religious intolerance. Still, there apparently will be some unable to be receptive and fair to the notion of the Catholic doctrine; this condition demands clarification on the grounds that wrongheaded information closes avenues of mutual understanding. Pugwash's position could else be construed as attributing historic errors to the Credo of all Catholics in general. Whereas, for others, familiarity with the Cathechism will allow a clearer understanding of Catholic "beliefs and standards." No other expectation is involved and, certainly, said understanding can lead to dialogue, without having to compromise one's own convictions; consequently, God's Word may be shared by all parties. Sadly, there remains in today's earlier posting the erroneous refrain that Catholics hold "...the Catholic Church (to be) infallible!!!!" which is different from asserting that ours is 'the One True Faith,' to which claim we should be entitled. It seems clear that, unless open minded attitudes come into play, it is pointless to pursue this dialogue.