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Separation of Church and State

reviewed by Victor83

Victor83
08/22/2007

Separation of Church and State 1

Read the 1st Amendment...read it carefully. Note the word CONGRESS! There is nothing "implied" there- it says what it means and means what it says. There is no such thing as a "separation clause". 

Update: The legitimatacy of judicial review is an issue which has been hotly contested since the time leading up to our constitutional convention, a debate that led to Marbury v. Madison. While the debate continues in certain circles and on certain occasions, the USSC continues to exercise this power. There is nothing- no language whatsoever- in the US Constitution which gives the Supreme Court this power. That is a fact; but to leave it there would be to ignore a lot of history, the writings of our founding fathers, the Federalist Papers, etc. Close study of these illustrates the point that a certain (limited) power of judicial review was intended to be bestowed upon the high court. Similarly, to correctly "interpret" the 1st Amendment it has unfortunately become necessary to look beyond the simple language therein pertaining to government and religion in this country.

Among the founding fathers, no one is more often cited in this debate than Thomas Jefferson. Like the Amendment itself, Jefferson's writings make it clear that his concern was the prevention of government interference with religion. Unlike many people today, Jefferson knew the history of the formation of his nation, that people fled Europe and England pursuing the freedom to worship as they might choose. In his writings, Jefferson goes to great lengths to point out that this also includes the right not to worship at all. In short, the cause championed by Jefferson and the rest of our founding fathers was one of freedom from a state church, like the Church of England. That is iterated, very simply, in the opening text of the 1st Amendment.

The problem faced today is one of perversion by groups like the ACLU and certain judicial activists. Hamilton wrote, in the Federalist Papers, that the Supreme Court was to serve as an intermediary body- between the people and their elected representatives. It was never intended that the courts should or would actually make law; yet that is what we have seen, particularly in the last 30 to 40 years. Further, there is nothing in the body of the Constitution, the writings of Hamilton, Jefferson, or any other of our founders, that says or is indicative of a "separation clause" as it is speciously referred to today. If a group of people in Bumblefuzz, Mississippi want to put a nativity scene up in the local post office, that is NOT government establishing a religion. The presence of a statue of Jesus erected by some WW1 veterans in western California by a desert road- land now called "federal"...this is not government establishing a religion. Hence, all of this garbage, from "no crosses on federal land" to no "Christmas trees" at Macy's is, again, a gross perversion of the 1st Amendment. We all favor religious freedom. Only a certain agenda-driven minority favor a Supreme Court -led attack on Christianity in the US.

  Update 2:  "Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle"...George Washington, from his farewell address.

Check the quotes I have posted in the comments section. Washington did in fact profess his Christianity publicly. This debate cuts to the core of the US Constitution, and there is a reason that the first amendment is FIRST. The attempt to call our founding fathers atheists, agnostics, Deists, etc., is an exercise in futility, and I have proven it. Our founding fathers wanted no established state religion. They wanted no government interference with the free excercise thereof (AS THEY WROTE).

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ProgrammerRingo commented 861 days ago.
I have read the First Amendment carefully, and my position has not changed. Whether it says "Congress" or "the United States government", the words "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" are still very clear. You triumph over my "omission" of "the free exercise thereof" as though it legitimizes your position. It does not. I thought I made it clear in my rewiew that I am not against religious freedom for Christians or any other religion in this country. I am against arrogant religionists who feel as though their religious beliefs should be established and held in a higher regard than others. The majority certainly has rights in this country, but that does not mean that the majority has special privileges. Just because Christians in this country may be the "majority" doesn't make their religious beliefs more legitimate nor does it mean that their beliefs should be officially established. That is an indefensible position because it's both unconstitutional and unethical. I also thought that I made it clear in my review that the existence of a literal "separation clause" does not matter. Just as the word "trinity" is not in the Bible and the word "federalism" is not in the Constitution, the phrase "separation of church and state" is not literally found in the Constitution but is the meaning of our First Amendment. The government - neither Congress nor any other body - will establish religion in this country. Speaking of "taking out of context", you read my entire review and chose to focus on one single part of it - ignoring points that I made and misrepresenting others. I did not say that the minority has more rights than the majority and have never advocated that position. I should say "nice try" to you, as you have obviously tried to find anything you can to use against me because my opinion does not fit your idea of how our country should be run. You are arguing against the very principle that empowers your right to freely believe in God in this country, which is sad.

Victor83 commented 861 days ago.
OH...so, you meant to be even handed. Good. Then why didn't you post the whole of the Amendment...at least as far as it pertains to religion???

Victor83 commented 861 days ago.
Programmer...let me try it this way...Congress is the legisative body of our federal government. What the founders meant- and they made this quite clear for anyone who can read at least at a 1st grade level- is that we would have no state religion, as in the Chruch of England. Thank God they had that wisdom and foresight. This does NOT mean government as in the individual state, the parish, the county, or the local municipality- all of that, ala the communist ACLU bringing lawsuits because Bumblebang, Mississippi wants a nativity scene on the courthouse steps at Christmas- is total BS. Read it again (this time in English).

ProgrammerRingo commented 860 days ago.
Your nit-picky response to my post is an obvious attempt to discredit the points I made in my original review - most of which you neither acknowledged nor addressed - because you did not have the means to argue effectively against them. It's not because I'm necessarily good at debate but because the efficacy of church/state separation is self-evident. Whether or not I mentioned the "or limit the free exercise thereof" part of the clause is irrelevant, considering the fact that I took great pains in my original review to establish the fact that I did not and do not oppose religious freedom - evidenced by the fact that I stated "private citizens have the freedom of religion". The point is further irrelevant since this argument stems from only one part of my review as opposed to the many points I raised. It makes no sense that if separation of church (the church institution) and state is to apply at the government level that it would not apply on the state level. The state or county seat hasn't the freedom to establish religion either, just as the individual state hasn't the right to coin its own money. The government - neither the state nor federal government - has the constitutional ability to establish a religion and endorse one set of religious beliefs over others. That's the way our country has run for over two hundred years, and religious freedom is still alive and well in this country. I suggest that instead of arguing against the very principle that guarantees your freedom of religion, you educate yourself about this issue.

Victor83 commented 860 days ago.
Programmer...this time...try...REALLY TRY to get it...Yazoo County, Mississippi or Boulder City, Colorado putting up nativity scenes ARE NOT government establishing a religion! Nor is Wal Mart or K-Mart or Macy's having banners that say "Merry Christmas". This whole "sparation" thing has been perverted to hell and back by the lef tand the ACLU. If you cannot see that, you are blind.

Victor83 commented 860 days ago.
And lastly...Congress meand CONGRESS. THe rest of this is your ad-lib.

ProgrammerRingo commented 860 days ago.
I suggest that you, Victor, "really try to get it" this time. If you placed a cross on your front lawn, would that not be a sign of support for the Christian religion? If you flew a rebel flag on your property, would that not be an outward sign of your sympathy towards the rebels during the Civil War? Common sense dictates that when religious symbols are erected on federal property, that amounts to support of that religion. There is no need for a Nativity scene on federal property. I suggest to you that if you feel so strongly about the Nativity, erect one on your own property or see to it that your local church erects one on their property. Your assertion that "the rest" of my beliefs concerning religious establishment are an "ad-lib" make no sense whatsoever. I have said before and will repeat it again: if the state does not even have the right to issue its own currency or to negotiate treaties with other nations, it would follow that the state also does not have the authority to establish religion. Neither the state nor the federal government, you see, have the freedom of religion. They remain religiously neutral so that the citizens under their care are given the freedom to decide religious matters for themselves. This is not some theoretical framework; it's common sense. It is also the way in which our government has always operated.

louiethe20th commented 860 days ago.
*Falling in the floor laughing after hearing Victor say Programmer's review was longer than Moby Dick*

ProgrammerRingo commented 860 days ago.
Well, what can I say? It takes a lot of words to say what I have to say about this issue. Someday maybe I'll write a 200-volume book series about it. Just kidding.

ma duron commented 860 days ago.
Normally one is best advised to stay away from these controversies. But, never mind. Again, please: how exactly is it that placing "a cross on your front lawns," displaying "a rebel flag on your property, putting up nativity scenes," or for "Wal MartK-Mart or Macy's having banners that say 'Merry Christmas'" amount to government making up "a law establishingreligion?"

Victor83 commented 860 days ago.
(SIGH) Programmer, if you are thick enough to believe that a cross on federal property constitues a state religion like The Church of England, I can't help you. But here is a question: Arlington National Cemetary is federal property, right? Someone has a s**t load of crosses to remove. lol

ma duron commented 860 days ago.
lol in Capital letters

Victor83 commented 860 days ago.
Thanks for the correction.

louiethe20th commented 859 days ago.
LOL

ProgrammerRingo commented 859 days ago.
Ma Duron: It's not "making a law" establishing religion, but it's a pretty clear endorsement of one religion over another. Groups of people don't erect symbols of ideas and beliefs they do not personally believe on their property. Victor: Same as what I wrote to Ma Duron and also: you're not listening to what I'm trying to tell you. I'm not calling a cross on federal property an establishment of religion. A federal cross is endorsement of religious belief. Since the government does not have the freedom of religion and therefore does not have the right to endorse religious beliefs, that practice is unconstitutional. I wish you would address ALL my points instead of picking out certain parts you wish to address.

Victor83 commented 859 days ago.
I have tried to address all your points, but let's face it; you aren't exactly out to win any awards for economy of words. Once again, how about the crosses at Arlington?

ProgrammerRingo commented 859 days ago.
Addressing my points: No you haven't. If you were truly trying to address all my points, you would not have chosen such a minor, nit-picky point from my original review. Word economy: I'll try to be more brief but I can't promise you much. There's a lot to say on this issue. Arlington crosses: I have already addressed this issue. I said in my last response that I did not have a problem with the crosses.

Victor83 commented 859 days ago.
On the one hand you say that you do have a problem with crosses on federal land. On the other hand, you do not have problem with crosses at Arlington; which is federal land. Yeah Programmer...I guess I tend to nit-pick gaping inconsistencies.

ProgrammerRingo commented 859 days ago.
I never said I have a problem with the crosses in Arlington cemetaries. When I mentioned 'federal cross' in my previous response, I was referring to a large cross on the grounds of the Capitol, for instance. Please do not put words into my mouth.

Victor83 commented 859 days ago.
I am not putting words in your mouth..."A federal cross is endorsement of religious belief. Since the government does not have the freedom of religion and therefore does not have the right to endorse religious beliefs, that practice is unconstitutional".- ProgrammerRingo. A quote from you. According to you, a "federal cross" is a cross on federal land. Arlington is federal land and has thens of thousands of crosses ON IT. That is one inconsistency in your argument. You need to educate yourself on this issue. I suggest you re-read louie's comments (and try to get it this time).

ProgrammerRingo commented 859 days ago.
There is a difference between a cemetary headstone - which is simply marking the fact that a body is buried beneath it - and an ostentacious cross erected on federal land. Cemetary crosses don't indicate endorsement of religion because they are simply parts of headstones. Large crosses placed on federal property with the sole purpose of attempting to say that ours is a "Christian nation", however, is endorsement of religion. You are right in the fact that I should have made myself more clear. I do not need education on this issue, but I suggest to you that Louis does, as he has contributed little more to this discussion than attempts at "cute" digs at me and simplistic arguments.

Victor83 commented 859 days ago.
I was referring to Louie's review, not the comments here. That aside, a cross on federal land is not a cross on federal land if it is part of a headstone. With all due respect- that is weak. We are a not a theocracy, but we are a Christian nation, Programmer. The US Constitution does not...REPEAT...does not forbid displays of Christianity on federal land, state land, or city land. If you are going to dispute that, kindly give me the SPECIFIC language in the Constitution that proves I am wrong- not your loose interpretations and desperate analogies. You claim to be all for religious freedom; yet you continually make an argument against it.

ProgrammerRingo commented 859 days ago.
You misquote me yet again when you claim that I said a cemetary cross is not a cross. That's not what I said. I stated that there's a difference between a headstone and a cross such as the one that's traditionally displayed on church property. Your equating religious freedom to the display of religious symbols on federal property is equally absurd. Your freedom of conscience and worship is not threatened simply because a cross is displayed on religious property. If you feel so strongly about religious symbology, I suggest you display those symbols on church property or your own private property. This is quickly transforming from a discussion about the philosophy of church and state separation and into an argument about semantics and nit-picking about minor points. You claim that my argument consist mainly of "loose interpretations" and "desperate analogies". If my case is so weak, then it should not be hard for you to disprove what I have said about separation of church and state, which you have not done and likely cannot do. The last refuge for someone who cannot defend their undefendable position is to distract their opponent by nit-picking about semantics, thereby keeping them from focusing on the issue at hand: the separation of church and state in general.

Victor83 commented 859 days ago.
Nope. I have disproven the validity of you argument, as did Louie's post on this thread. Again, your assertion that there should be no crosses on federal property...BUT a cross is not a cross if it is part of a headstone is lame at best. And, BTW, it is impossible to "misquote" you when I copy and paste the very words from your OWN comments.

ProgrammerRingo commented 859 days ago.
When did you disprove my arguments? You haven't even addressed them all yet! You can't disprove what you don't acknowledge. What's lame is claiming success when you haven't yet begun to even disprove my arguments. Again, and hopefully for the last time: I did not say that a headstone cross is not a cross. I said that there's a philosophical difference between a headstone cross and a larger cross that's displayed on church grounds. The former (headstone cross) is used to mark a grave. The latter (larger cross) is used to represent the Christian religion. Finally, it's possible to quote your opponent and still take them out of context, as you have done.

Victor83 commented 859 days ago.
Programmer, as I said in my original post, the 1st Amendment says what it means and that is it. This shouldn't be too difficult for an elementary school child: It simply means that the federal government (Congress) cannot pass a law establishing a state religion. If they put a giant cross on the White House lawn, that would not be Congress passing a law. This (very simple) language has been skewed and perverted by the ACLU and other anti-Christian zealots. There is nothing implied in the 1st amendment. It is not a study in philosophy. It says nothing about the government "preferring" one religion over another. There is nothing in the language that gives Programmer, or anyone else, license to say this or that constitutes the preference of one religion over another. I strongly suggest that you study some US history.

ProgrammerRingo commented 858 days ago.
I see that in the face of lacking the arguments to defend your point of view, you have resorted to insults ("grade school child"). If you cannot discuss this issue maturely, I will end this discussion and find someone who can. I beg to differ with your assertion that this is not a "study of philosophy". One of the facets of studying law is examining the philosophy behind the laws of our country. The Constitution is interpreted (reasonably) just like any major work of literature. You are completely wrong about religious preference in government. The First Amendment says, and I quote: "Congress shall pass no law RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION". If the government can pass no LAW respecting an establishment of religion, it would logically follow that the government cannot establish religion even if no law is passed. This would include a cross on White House property because a cross is a symbol of Christianity on the grounds of the executive mansion - where the chief executive of our country lives. It's unconstitutional. If President Bush or any other President feels so strongly about a cross, let them erect one on their own private property. If the framers "meant what they said and said what they meant" as you claim, then Congress may abridge the free exercise of religion so long as Congress does not prohibit it. You suggest that I study American history? I have, and my opinion has not changed. I countersuggest to you that you educate yourself on this issue rather than bringing up the same old tired arguments that are invariably raised with this issue.

Victor83 commented 858 days ago.
You are wrong. As I said before, you are a broken-record extension of the ACLU and the leftist view of certain judicial activists. You are obviously entitled to your opinion; but stop BSing me and others, saying that it has a Constitutional basis. Your interpretation of "it follows logically" differs from many, including me.

ProgrammerRingo commented 858 days ago.
I am wrong, but you have yet to prove that conclusively. All you have done thus far is muddle the debate with nitpicking about semantics. It may interest you to know that contrary to your knee-jerk assumption that I'm involved with the ACLU, I do not support most of their decisions. The ACLU chooses to start ridiculous arguments about crosses in graveyards instead of focusing on protecting the REAL church and state. In fact, I'm not even a member of the ACLU and do not anticipate becoming a member in the future - not that I have to explain the groups to which I belong to you. It is your assertion that I disagree with your position and the position of many people, as though that is somehow supposed to chasten me. A majority of Americans could believe that the world is made of snow - that doesn't mean that they're correct. My viewpoints may not agree with yours but they do agree with "judicial activists" such as Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. I'd rather align my viewpoints concerning church and state with them rather than almost anyone else in this country. Now: are we going to actually debate this issue or continue to debate over semantics? If I am as incorrect as you claim, it should be no problem to prove me wrong.

Victor83 commented 858 days ago.
1)As this novel proves...I HAVE PROVEN YOU WRONG!!!!! 2)Jefferson and Madison would laugh at your silly assertions. 3) The world is made primarily of snow, since snow is basically frozen water and water constituties 2/3 of the world's surface (and that isn't even counting the moisture in the atmosphere. I know...the 1st Amendment says we will have separation of snow and water.

Victor83 commented 858 days ago.
Or was that snow and state?)

ProgrammerRingo commented 858 days ago.
Confronted with the hard realities of this debate, you are beginning to lose control. Seriously: how did you get to be trusted by thirty-seven other reviewers when your arguments consist mostly of arguing semantics and then claiming you are right when nothing in fact has been proven? That's many things but maturity is not one of them. This useless discussion needn't last any longer.

Victor83 commented 857 days ago.
Programmer...notice that no one, besides me, is responding here? You have made a clown of yourself. However, if it makes you feel better to convince yourself hat you "won"....knock yourself out. The movement to do away with Christianity and/or anything to do with it has already created a backlash, and there is more to come. In the meantime, I hope you learn the true meaning of the First Amendment and the Constitution of the United States of America.

ProgrammerRingo commented 857 days ago.
Seeing as how you have yet to disprove much of what I argued in my original review, and have chosen instead to argue over semantics, it seems as though you are not in a position to argue your case at this time. Your claims about "doing away with" Christianity proceed from a false assumption that separation of church and state was enacted simply to inconvenience and persecute Christians. If that were so, most of the founding fathers that we hold in high regard today would be considered "anti-faith bigots", as none of them were interested in creating a national religion in this country. Have I "made a clown of myself"? Frankly, I don't care. Defending this issue from the ignorance that surrounds it is much more important to me than a precarious reputation among those on an online website. When you have studied this issue more completely and can generate better arguments, we can discuss this issue further.

Wiseguy commented 854 days ago.
Ringo, Seriously, what are you defending. I wish you were as passionate about fighting Islamic Fascist as you are fighting against some Christian boogie man. A balance is in place, there are bigger fish to fry.

ProgrammerRingo commented 854 days ago.
Speaking of fish, I believe that your bringing Islamic fascists into the picture is a red herring that distracts from the issue at hand. What am I defending? I am fighting the intellectual fight for religious freedom by defending the only way that religious freedom and freedom of conscience can be guaranteed in this country. I have debated and studied this issue extensively, and I have yet to find any argument that convinces me either that the separation of church and state is a bad idea or that it does not exist. This system has worked for the over 200 years that this country has been in existence and will continue to work, if those in charge of our government don't begin to believe the lies and half-truths that are so often stated as fact about the separation of church and state.

Wiseguy commented 854 days ago.
Ringo, I believe you when you say you've studied the issue, and if you read my post you'll see that I don't really disagree with you. My question still remains. I checked the separation issue off years ago and I don't see a red flag up right now, red flags are up with respect to Islamo fanatics and world wide jihad against the west. Many people are experiencing separation of head from shoulders.

Victor83 commented 854 days ago.
Wise...it is very telling that Ringo responds to your point about Islam Fascists as a "red herring". By his definition of "separation", we are talking about Christianity- and of course, that only. Yet another hole in his specious argument.

Wiseguy commented 854 days ago.
I think ringo's priorities are mis-placed, he seems obsessed with the issue. I think his opinions are heart felt. I've said it a thousand times...Liberals live in the past, defending liberties we already have. We've lost no freedom. Bush could give a s#it about what ringo's talking about on the phone.

ProgrammerRingo commented 853 days ago.
aWiseguy: My priorities are not misplaced. There is nothing more important in this country than basic freedoms, and religious freedom is a component of that. It seems to me that you brought "Islamic fascism" into the mix only so that you could pounce when I rightly stated that it had nothing to do with the issue at hand. I suggest you stay on the issue. Victor: Once again you misrepresent my viewpoints because your arguments do not hold water. Separation is NOT simply aimed towards Christians. I did not say that anywhere in my review and do not believe it. I suggest you get the facts before you blithely post such untruths.

Victor83 commented 853 days ago.
Ringo, you remind me of a stop sign. If I get out of my car and debate it for weeks, it will still say the same thing.

ProgrammerRingo commented 853 days ago.
I'm sorry that you can't accept religious freedom for other religions in this country, Victor. I cannot help you unless you open your mind a little bit, however. Again: learn the facts and educate yourself about this issue before posting the same tired, overused arguments.

Wiseguy commented 853 days ago.
don't see why we can't broaden the discussion ringo...

Victor83 commented 853 days ago.
Wise...if you want a (bad) book...reread all of this. Ringo does not have a leg to stand on. His crap is straight out of the ACLU talking points and has very little, if anything, to do with the US Constitution. He is a typical, can't debate intelligently, liberal.

ProgrammerRingo commented 853 days ago.
aWiseguy: A change of subject is fine. I simply don't understand why the War on Terror is suddenly being included in a debate about church and state. If I have mischaracterized you, I apologize.

Victor83 commented 853 days ago.
Ringo has seen fit to attack me personally in the testimonial section of my home page. No further proof is required...his argument is defeated.

Flick01 commented 848 days ago.
Mr Ringo, I hope you are equally passionate about keeping the government out of my church and away from my pulpit.

Victor83 commented 848 days ago.
Flick...there are already instances that illustrate your point. Under certain "hate crimes" legislation for example, there is a movement afoot to prevent ministers from preaching against things like homosexuality. The hypocrisy here defies words.

Flick01 commented 848 days ago.
Victor, You are correct and I addressed that issue when I wrote a review of Separation of Church and State but I wrote it under the heading of "Things that make America Great" and not this heading. Perhaps a reposting under this heading is in order?

Victor83 commented 848 days ago.
I would say that a good "consistency test" is in order...yeah.

ProgrammerRingo commented 847 days ago.
Flick01: I certainly am, sir. If the church institution should keep out of government business, then the government should stay out of church business. The government does not have the right to dictate what you can and cannot preach unless you are preaching real hatred - such as radical Islamists preaching jihad. Sermons on homosexuality don't fall into that category. Victor: I agree with you. Silencing religious speech in that way is completely contrary to everything in which I believe. Separate church and state? In mt opinion, yes. Prevent pastors from freely speaking on controversial issues? Hell no!

Victor83 commented 847 days ago.
Ringo...I agree with your last comment, with one exception. If a minister is telling his congregation to go out and murder homosexuals, or anyone else, that is one thing. Preaching that a certain behavior/ lifestyle is a sin according to the Bible does not fall into that category and is nothing whatsoever like Islamic Jihad.

ProgrammerRingo commented 846 days ago.
I agree, and I didn't mean to equate the two. I apologize if it came across that way. I was saying that a minister who preaches a sermon about homosexuality not being God's choice is very different from a radical preaching jihad. Ther former is free speech that cannot and shouldn't be violated. The latter is incitement to violence (among other things) and isn't protected.
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