Username: Password:
Welcome! Please Sign In or Register

Separation of Church and State

reviewed by Loerke

Loerke
08/22/2007

Separation of Church and State 5

One of the few issues on this list that was also around in 1776. The U.S. founders were, on the whole, stubborn agnostics who made little reference to divine ordinances. Jefferson famously pared down the bible to a 30-page booklet of useful ideas, taking out Christ and most of the silly OT stories. It's sad that this issue remains a matter of debate today, but this is the very reason the far right likes to exploit it: it's an issue they can't win in the United States, so they know that they can ride it to the end of time. From this basic fact arise several strands of fundamentalists: (1) the cynics, like the old Kevin Phillips, who see religion a la Machiavelli as an instrument of rule; (2) the masochists, like Pat Robertson, those who like to see themselves lose and the rest of us suffer in order to feed the sense of persecution they have inherited from extremist strains of Christianity; and (3) the theocrats, those like Bush, who would seem to prefer to live in a society like Saudi Arabia's; irony of ironies, the one electoral bloc that went unfailingly for Bush in 2000 was fundamentalist Muslims.

While the occasional reference to "god" might be harmless enough, the institutionalization of religious symbols on public property remains a constant danger and irritant. There is no reason why a dead man can't choose to put a cross on his own grave, but equally no reason why any elected official can endorse a particular religious figure like Christ in their courthouse.

UPDATE: I'm not sure why the personal beliefs of the Founding Fathers are really so critical to this debate, since it's the text of the Constitution, not the lives of those who wrote it, that's at stake. But there has been some unclarity about the word "agnostic." Perhaps it was a bad choice of word. What I meant is that the Founders did not believe that there could be such a thing as collective certainty about divine matters. Such certainty they saw as pernicious. Divine matters did not belong to the category of knowledge (hence "a-gnostic," "not knowledge") but to individual conscience. They therefore took any attempt to provide institutional or collective recognition of religion as a grave threat to liberty. That's why Washington refused even to provide even the slightest hint of public endorsement of Christianity, and why Protestant ministers would for decades accuse him of atheism. Meanwhile, in our own time, the "wall of separation" between church and state is being threatened today in ways that would have shocked anyone in 1787. We have a born-again (i.e., one who believes that Christ is specifically calls on each of us throughout our lives as a "savior") as president, we have government funding for "faith-based initiatives," we have divine memorabilia sitting on public property. That should offend anyone who cares about the Constitution, not to mention any true Protestant, who is commanded to reject any "graven images" anyway.

UPDATE 2: I'm glad Victor has quoted the Farewell Address. A great document if there ever was one. Notice that Washington says "religious principle," not "Christian" principle or even "God." He uses "religious" in the Latin sense of "social bond," in the spirit of a good Roman republican, like all the Founders were. He speaks of "national morality," not "Christian morality." There's nothing here that needs a god - it's a completely secular principle of virtue.

Join to vote! 4 Helpful / 1 Funny / 0 Agree / 1 Disagree
Showing 36 Comments
You must be logged in to comment. login now.
Victor83 commented 824 days ago.
Now our founding fathers were mostly agnostics...LMAO. Loerke, you're on a roll lately. Please let me know what kind of vitamins you take...I could use some of that energy.

Loerke commented 824 days ago.
Dude, I teach early American history. If there's an area I know, it's this. Don't try to doubt me on this, because I guarantee it'll go nowhere.

Victor83 commented 824 days ago.
Cool...I was a history major in college, and can bombard you with quotes from our founding fathers affirming their faith in God.

Loerke commented 824 days ago.
They used the words "God" all the time in the sense of "providence." The term is really a placeholder expressing their deep faith in human progress. You won't find any founding fathers talking about established churches, the book of common prayer, or any religious tenets of substance. I'd be pretty impressed if you could change my mind on the issue.

Victor83 commented 824 days ago.
I doubt it as well; but to claim that most of the founding fathers were agnostics is to claim an absolute falsehood. I hope you aren't teaching kids that kind of garbage.

Victor83 commented 824 days ago.
Religion and good morals are the only solid foundation of public liberty and happiness. Samuel Adams

Victor83 commented 824 days ago.
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible"...George Washington.

Victor83 commented 824 days ago.
"Is it necessary that any one should ask, Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country." ...Nelly Curtis Lewis, George Washington's adopted daughter.

Victor83 commented 824 days ago.
A small sampling of proof that they professed their belief in the Christian God, the Bible, and Christianity itself.

Victor83 commented 824 days ago.
"God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel."...Benjamin Franklin at the Constituional Convention of 1787.

Victor83 commented 824 days ago.
"I have tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy. Pray for me."...Alexander Hamilton.

Loerke commented 824 days ago.
Jefferson's description of Washington's time in office is priceless, because it shows that at this time in history an elected official would hardly dare mention religion: "...when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice."

Loerke commented 824 days ago.
Hamilton is the last guy among all of these figures to do anything because a religion told him to. Those are supposedly his dying words, reported as such in order not to shock the family ...

Loerke commented 824 days ago.
I really appreciate all of the quotations, Vic. I'm sure I could find others that would speak to the other point. But the fact is that this is the one period in U.S. history when religion holds little to no power for the historical actors. Compare the Revolutionary and founding periods to the Puritan era, the Great Awakening, the abolitionist movement, the Civil War, and so forth: the early Constitutional period is the one in which religion figures least.

Loerke commented 824 days ago.
Franklin was an especially wily fox. If he told the Convention one thing, another thing was in his heart. He arose to consciousness of the public through his dislike of his prominent Boston neighbors, the Mathers. His entire Autobiography is one huge attempt to attack the hagiographies of the saints.

Loerke commented 824 days ago.
As for Adams, he is obsessed with destroying the tyranny of churches & priests. Read his most famous essay, "The Canon and the Feudal Law."

louiethe20th commented 824 days ago.
Much of what John Adams and others have said has been misunderstood and alot of our founding father's phrases are quoted out of context. This is exactly what is done by many who do not want to admit to our Founders faith and vision for faith in government.

louiethe20th commented 824 days ago.
Stubborn? Yes. Agnostics? Not a chance.

Victor83 commented 824 days ago.
I have plenty more quotes- Madison for example. Apparently it would do no good to post them however, as the case will be made that they said these things- but didn't really mean them.

Loerke commented 823 days ago.
Victor, doesn't the word "God" mean different things to different people?

Loerke commented 823 days ago.
Louie, don't be childish. You can't just make a blanket assertion that all my quotations are our of context, and that Vic's were in context. In fact, I provided context for one of Vic's. So prove to me that all of my quotations are out of context and Vic's are in. Thanks.

Victor83 commented 823 days ago.
It is quite clear that they were referring to Jehova, the Christian God and Father of Jesus Christ, Loerke.

Loerke commented 823 days ago.
"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until the awful blasphemy of the Trinity is abandoned, there never will be any liberal science in the world." -Adams

Loerke commented 823 days ago.
The Christian God has many manifestations. That's why there's been, like, um, 4000 schisms since the beginning. Anyway, I don't why any of this really matters to the understanding of the Constitution, whose interpretation you seem mysteriously intent on reinventing after over 200 years of amicable separation of church & state.

Victor83 commented 822 days ago.
If anyone has attempted to reinvent the interpretation of the Constitution Loerke, it is your side- not mine. I have said a million times that they wanted to state religion, period. In the course of this debate you started out saying that our founding fathers were mostly agnostics. I disproved that, so you backpedalled...sure they spoke of god, but "god" was just a glyph...a symbolic way to affirm their belief in human progress. Using their own words, I disproved that. Now the best you can do is claim that the Christian God has many manifestations-which is false- and accuse me of practicing your "dark art"(sic). If it angers you that I point out the fact that the true meaning of the 1st Amendment has been and continues to be perverted by the left and the ACLU, sorry. If it angers you that I point out the fact that most of our founding fathers were Bible believing Christians, sorry. Personally, I found this a civil, albeit spirited debate. Apparently you disagree.

Victor83 commented 822 days ago.
wanted NO state religion***...pardon the typo

Victor83 commented 822 days ago.
"Men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and who are rising in reputation and wealth, should publicly declare the unsatisfactoriness of temporal enjoyments by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way"... James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, September 25, 1773.

CanadaSucks commented 822 days ago.
Tell it like it is. . .

Victor83 commented 822 days ago.
I did...thanks.

louiethe20th commented 822 days ago.
Meanwhile we have the Muslim religion being catered to in federally funded public schools. Where is the separation of church and state(public schools) when it comes to the Muslim religion? A blind eye is turned as usual, until those radical right wing Chrisitians try to do something.

Loerke commented 822 days ago.
I don't know what events you're referring to, Louie. If the schools are actually teaching Islamic doctrine, well, sure that would be highly outrageous. But I seriously doubt that. Maybe it's the fact that the schools are just protecting Islamic kids from getting harassed that irritates you. It wouldn't exactly be easy to be an Islamic kid after 9/11.

louiethe20th commented 822 days ago.
I'm talking about special privileges afforded to Muslim students in public schools. E.g. Prayer rugs, etc.

louiethe20th commented 822 days ago.
"When we assemble together, fellow citizens, to consider the state of our beloved country, our just attentions are first drawn to those pleasing circumstances which mark the goodness of that Being from whose favor they flow, and the large measure of thankfulness we owe for his bounty."Jefferson Dec 15, 1802. Jefferson concluded his second inaugural address by asking Americans to join with him in prayer that the "Being in whose hands we are . . . will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures, that whatsoever they do, shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations." March 4, 1805

Loerke commented 822 days ago.
Being schmeeing. The French Revolution had its Festival of the Supreme Being, and no one can call the French revolutionaries Christians.

Victor83 commented 822 days ago.
YO LOERKE! Since you seem so interested in this topic, and since you are a teacher...how the hell could you not know that you and I are now "footing" the bill (pun intended) for special foot-washing sinks at the University of Michigan?????? Yes indeed....for those beloved little muswims who...JUST MIGHT...get harassed by the evil ol Christian students. As Louie asked, where is your outrage over this? How is this not a violation of your precious "separation clause"??? I guess as long as they don't post the Ten Commandments, we are safe. Ahhhhhh....the hypocrisy of the left....

James76255 commented 776 days ago.
Dear God... If you are an American history teacher that explains part of the reason our educational system is in such sorry shape.
Showing 36 Comments
About This Reviewer
By the Numbers