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Abortion

reviewed by FranksWildYears

FranksWildYear s
02/18/2009

Abortion 3

We send the best young men and women of a generation into battle to die protecting the status quo as determined by their elders. We have state sanctioned termination of the lives of those whose behaviour we have deemed unacceptable. We make choices about the allocation of life sustaining resources, medication and healthcare, emergency relief from natural disasters, food and foreign aid. We write living wills specifying when we want people to refrain from providing life saving medical attention. By ‘we’ I don’t mean America, or the West, or Christians, or the good guys, I mean humanity. There are also millions who are killed by their fellow man or their own hand in ways that are not legally sanctioned, murder, suicide, criminal negligence, drunk driving. The unborn are by a long shot not only the examples of society’s lack of regard for the sanctity of life.

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Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
I miss the point here. Because there are other wrongs in the world, this should not matter?

FranksWildYears commented 280 days ago.
The basic arguement that life is sacred, or some such thing, doesn't seem to stand up to the scrutiny of decisions we make every day.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
I guess it depends, in reality, on whether or not you equate an innocent baby in the womb to a terrorist, murderer, etc.

FranksWildYears commented 280 days ago.
Or a person waiting for chemotherapy in a system with insufficient resources for treatment, or a person in a drought stricken land who is not provided food aid when nations are spending money on wars.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
I see where you're going Frank...but I cannot control what people do in other nations. And, btw...you guys said we should not try. Again, this is a question about the right to life. Saying that there are other ills and wrongs in the world, while true, does not address the crime that is abortion as a means of birth control.

FranksWildYears commented 280 days ago.
Other nations, our nations (we don't live in the same country), governments, individuals, corporations, rogue elements, stupid kids, we are all making life affecting choices more often than we care to admit, because we wouldn't be able to sleep if we did think about it. I personally would hope my child would come to me and discuss whether to get an abortion. I'm not even sure how I would react or what I would say. But I know that the ugly truth is that there are lots and lots of kids who don't have that kind of relationship with their parents, or in a lot of cases that kind of access to their parents. It's far from a perfect world, and we have a duel responsibility of trying to live with that fact and try to improve it.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
Understood. What I don't understand however, is how anyone can say that on the one hand a 15 year old girl (for example) is too young to make the consent decision when it comes to sex...yet she IS old and mature enough to make the decision over life and death that is abortion. That is completely inconsistent.

cyclee commented 280 days ago.
No, she is not, but by making a decision for her that she thinks is wrong right now does not increase the chance of her thinking it's right later.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
That may or may not be the case...but that is not the issue. You cannot say that she is too young for sex but old enough to make a decision like that without parental consent.

cyclee commented 280 days ago.
By your account you agree that they should also require a parental consent to keep the babies then?

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
"Keep" babies? Do you mean carry the child to term? Raise the baby? Both?

FranksWildYears commented 280 days ago.
I won't refute your point about the fact that a kid isn't mature enough to make that decision, but the truth is that they are in that position with tragic regularity. By the time the kid is knocked up, issues of consent regarding sex are a mute point. I've never been to an abortion clinic, but I would hope that counselling is involved. And I would hope for the kid's sake that parental support is available. But you and I both know that there a lot of kids who would be afraid to go to a parent in such a situation. I'd even venture that a lot of them are justifiably afraid to go to a parent with such a problem.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
If a teenage girl wants to carry a child to term, I am not sure how a parent could stop them, barring forced abortion- which I think even you guys would agree is wrong.

FranksWildYears commented 280 days ago.
Wrong and I assume very rare, if not virtually unheard of.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
Frank....I would think so...and hope so.

cyclee commented 280 days ago.
So, let me get this straight, if a teenage girl decides she wants abortion, she's too young to know that and thus needs consent, but if she decides to keep the baby, then she's not too young to make that decision and thus needs no consent? Admit it Victor, you're not really thinking teenage girl can decide for herself, you're just thinking it's wrong to kill an innocent baby, which is a different argument.

FranksWildYears commented 280 days ago.
I don't think Victor would disagree with you there.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
Wrong cyclee. What I am saying is this: To say that a minor going to an abortion clinic is none of the parent's business is...sorry...insane. Minors cannot vote, they cannot own property, they cannot legally marry (depending on age and state) without parental consent, etc...on the list goes. But you want to say that they should be able to have an abortion that way. The glaring inconsistency is not mine in this discussion.

cyclee commented 280 days ago.
And yes Victor, I don't think I had mistaken you. You're the one who's having the double standard as far as the issue of whether a young teeage girl is old enough to make her own decision is concerned. I think it's equally insane that it's none of the parent's business if the girl wants to keep the baby. Sorry, I must be those few you just don't think exist.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
I think even frank will agree- though he disagrees with me on the topic- that I have been consistent here- no double standard whatsoever. Having a baby and "keeping" a baby are two different things cyclee. I think you know that. Nice try.

cyclee commented 280 days ago.
Wait, since when are we talking about having a baby. I assume it's "keeping" a baby we've been talking since "abortion" is the subject and by thinking "abortion", I assume it's a mistake. You've been consistent with your view I agree, which is abortion is wrong, abortion is wrong, and, abortion is wrong. What you're not consistent of, is whether you think a girl can make her own decision without consent. With one decision, you say she can, with the other, you say she can't.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
Cyclee...you are (for some reason) trying to pigeon-hole me by accusing me of being against abortion. Let me help you...you are correct...I think it is wrong. What I was discussing with frank here is the question of parental consent for abortion in the case of a MINOR teenage CHILD. We do call them children if they are under 18...right? I am 43. If I have sex with a 17 year old girl, you would be the first to jump up and say that my my rear end should be buried under the jail. Do me a favor if you would...tell me that I am wrong in that assertion, or tell me why you think I should go to jail under those circumstances.

cyclee commented 280 days ago.
You've been right all along that they can't make their decision wisely, and I agreed, and so I said they're equally incapapble of making the decision to keep (and I say keep as to keep the baby alive) the baby, unless of course, you've already assumed that abortion is the wrong decision, which you did, so I pointed out that's what you've been talking about all along, which I was right and you also admitted. I wasn't pigeon-holing you for something so obvious in your argument. Oh, and I'm trying to be hostile or anything, I still like you.

cyclee commented 280 days ago.
I'm NOT, sorry. Oh, and Franks, sorry for trolling your post.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
cyclee....thank you...seriously. Guess we will agree to disagree on this one. However...if your cat gets pregnant...I will be there with kitty social services.

cyclee commented 280 days ago.
Well, being a wise cat parent I am, I've fixed that problem early before they even knew they could. Powers to the parents! However, I'd really like to see that kitty social services of yours.

Victor83 commented 280 days ago.
They shed a lot.
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