not sure where you bought your Authority Lamb and Rice dog food at, but the ingredients on the bags they sell here list, and I quote:

Lamb Meal, Brewers Rice, Ground Wheat, Wheat Germ Meal, Lamb, Brown Rice, Rice Bran, Animal Fat preserved with Vitamin E (mixed tocopherols), Natural Flavors, Canola Oil

Those are the first ten ingredients, verbatim. Five portions of carbohydrates to two portions of protein, and two of those carbs are wheat ingredients, with wheat being one of the top allergens for dogs... aside from wheat being next to impossible to digest. Primary fat source is unspecified animal fat, which means the fat they use could be rancid slaughterhouse waste, or could be rendered from roadkill. Yes, roadkill. And the mystery ingredient "natural flavors" could mean anything from broth to blood to feces. Yes, they could put animal feces in this food and call it "natural flavor."

Hi,
Thanks for your constructive comments, it sounds like you know your stuff! What do you feed your dog?
I buy from PetSmart here in Muskegon, Mi. I get (Authority adult formulated for ages 1-7). It says Lamb on the bag but not it the name of the food. A 34 lb bag is about 29$.
Since I assume you're educated about stuff you'd know that just Lamb isn't good enough as the first, since fresh meat is mostly moisture. That's why the Lamb meal as second impressed me as well as brown rice next, (I eat Brown rice). People seem to believe that dogs are carnivores but in reality they are omnivores like humans and pigs. The upc code is 7- (3725790245) - 9. Expiration date is July of 2010. Here are the top ingredients from the bag:
Lamb, Lamb meal, brown rice, wheat, wheat germ meal, oat groats, rice bran, brewers rice, beef tallow, NATURAL FLAVOR, dried egg, canola oil, corn oil and down the line with supplements. My main concern is that Maxximum from walmart had sorghum as the top grain and the carb change may be what people complain about re: lethargy.
I understand full well about the fat some use, some comes from restaurant fryers too. I know there is better food at higher prices and I constantly look for the best buy for the ingredients I get. There always seems to be something to criticize in every brand. Maxximum had some beet pulp as filler.
What do you know about the extruded vs baked controversy?
Jon

Jon, I feed my pets a blend of superpremium kiblles, brands such as Blue Buffalo, Innova, Wellness, Prairie, Evangers, Merrick BG, and others.

I can't account for the discrepancies between the labels we're seeing. PetSmarts here in the Seattle area have 3 Authority Adult formulas... Adult with Real Chicken, Adult with Real lamb, and Adult with Real Beef. And the ingredients for the Adult Lamb are as posted above.

You are correct in thinking that Lamb meal is a bit preferable, as ingredients are listed in order of pre-cooked weight. Lamb meal, being dehydrated and ground, has all the water weight removed allowing a greater volume of meal, by weight, than whole meat. However, rendering whole meat into meal prior to cooking does add one more step to food processing, and the more an ingredient is processed, the less nutrition it will contain. It's a give and take. Both whole meats and dehydrated meat meals are valuable ingredients in pet food formulation.

You assert that dogs are omnivores. Why do you feel that way? Wild observation, analysis of stomach contents, taxonomy, and digestive process all indicate that all canines are carnivores. They are more properly classed as "opportunistic carnivores" (rather than "obligate carnivores" like felines) as they can eat, digest, and metabolize nutrients from non-meat sources... but dogs ARE carnivores, none the less.

Maxximum Nutrition from Wal Mart IS a lower quality food, without a doubt, but Authority is less than stellar, itself. For the biggest bang for your buck, the best cheap food on the market is Kirkland Signature available at Costco. For those without a nearby Costco (or those without a Costco membership, the same company that makes the Kirkland food makes a comparable product under their own company lable, Diamond Naturals. Diamond Naturals food is available from many independant pet stores and some farm/feed stores. However, I firmly believe that the upper echelon foods are a bigger savings in the long run, due to the overabundance of nutrition in them. Dogs are full faster and for a longer duration, meaning less food eaten and bags of food lasting significantly longer, and the cornucopia of supplements in the higher-end foods can make pets healthier, meaning less money spent at the veterinary clinic.

As far as baked vs. extruded... I really don't think it matters. Both are cooking processes, and cooking is cooking. Both use high temperatures to kill off unwanted microbes, and dehydrate kibble to less than ten percent moisture content. Much more important than baked or extruded is the quality of the ingredients and nutrients used to make the food.

Hi,
Thanks again for your comments. There are no Costco stores here, Sam's club is it's variant in Mi. I appreciate the valuable time you spend online considering you're a vet, a profession more difficult to become than a Dr. of Medicine and less financially rewarding, (I went to Cornell U. and the vet school was far harder to be accepted in than the Med School). My personal vet is disgusted with the state of his profession here in MI and is retiring ASAP.

Though he is quiet about it he is particularly disgusted with the upper and middle echelons of those directing the rescue centers here. Due to the ongoing (permanent) economic crisis here there is a crush of abandoned pets but the rescue centers have not lowered their adoption standards while their no kill policies require them to constantly beg for funds. They routinely don't return calls from those trying to get pets that folks find into shelters because they are always at capacity. Sorry if this offends you. I found this out from my vet after being declined to adopt a dog at a no kill cause I'm unemployed. I was also required to provide a vet reference though how could someone have such a reference without already owning a pet? They assumed I was too poor to own a dog though I'm financially sound. They also insist all adopted dogs go to homes that are fenced or you must install one first

I will take your advice and look for the diamond brand, it sounds familiar. By the way, Authority is made by Iams, sold only at PetSmart and does not have an oily texture nor oil residue on the inside of the bag. I can only figure that the fats are incorporated into the food itself and not sprayed on afterwords.
Your term opportunistic carnivore is insightful to me but I can rationalize dogs as omnivores because:

1. 80% + of dog food sold comes from supermarkets and to compare ingredients they are indeed almost exactly pig food concentrate. Though I disapprove, my folks own a 13 y/o frisky German Shorthair whom they feed Ol' Roy. If she dies of cancer I'd suspect it's due to toxic agents in the ingredients and not the ingredient types themselves.

2. Though some dogs like terriers are killers many breeds like my Basset are not. He will smell, lick and mouth a rabbit but has no interest in eating it or raw flesh. Of course he wasn't raised on it but cats are fed plain cat food but still stalk, kill and eat birds and whatever they get there claws on. I see feral cats below my bird houses and find bird heads/feathers routinely. Hawks carry their prey off. A local lady feeds these cats. I bought her collars with bells but she won't put them on the cats. It's most distressing.

3. Dogs CAN digest grain carbohydrates and proteins. Though wheat protein is only about 50% digestible others are higher and meat is only 90%. Cat's would not survive on such a diet as they can't synthasize Taurine. Furthermore, even purists who feed raw food diets include veggies in their recipes and many mistakenly think muscle meat is complete nutritionally which it's not. My dog's second favorite treat is carrots which he has now learned to dig up in my garden.
4. Globally, dogs are mostly held in low regard and a high % are feral in human communities like in Asia. These animals world over revert to a recognizable DOG archetype, not wolves. They do not revert to the wild but scrounge for food refuse just like pigs. Indeed, lose dogs who form hunting packs here routinely hunt and kill but are not known to consume their prey (at least to my knowledge). I assume this is pack behavior and not for food.
5. It's now known that humans and likely dogs are far more genetically adaptable than previously thought. Humans genetically can evolve WITHIN ONE generation (lifetime) and these changes are even more obvious after two generations. You and I are evolving as we breathe!

Though I certainly appreciate and will follow your advice, I did google your username and found many of your posts somewhat inflammatory.
In many, you may be scaring folks by degrading dog foods by labeling most grains as allergens. Allergens, allergens, allergens. That and Road kill, road kill road kill. Only 10% of dog allergies are due to diet, period. Your talk of road kill is somewhat silly as well. If you hunt or have dissected a wild animal you know they have little to no fat except inside their abdominal cavities. A company would go broke rendering wild animals for their small amount of body fat.
Thanks again for responding, your advice and efforts for animals. I invite a response from you and whomever may have taken the time to read this post.

Sincerely,

Jon

Well, since you all but dismiss me as inflammatory and silly at the end of your post, I'm not going to take too much time responding, I DID want to touch on a couple of subjects. First your arguments for dogs being classified as omnivores.

Argument one is that 80% of dog foods contain massive amounts of grain and vegetable matter, ergo dogs must be omnivores. This is not the case, and high-carbohydrate foods such as what you see in the grocery and departments stores are responsible for so many evolving health concerns in dogs and cats. Dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years, but the pet food industry is barely a century old, and has only recently started evolving to provide dogs the nutrition they really need. Just because the pet food manufacturers make cheap, cereal based foods does not mean that is what's ideal... any more than candy bars, Taco Bell, and cigarettes are healthy for humans.

Second argument is that domesticated dogs don't hunt (or if they DO hunt, don't eat their kill), and therefore must not be carnivores. No, dogs are still carnivores... they are just domesticated carnivores. Many breeds have lost the killer instinct. Most often, that's intentional. Basset hounds were bred to be scent tracking hunting dogs. The natural tracking instinct was bred to be enhanced in this breed, but the natural desire to kill and eat what was tracked was bred out of them. What hunter wants to follow his baying Basset to the end of the hunt, only to find a half-eaten rabbit and a satisfied dog? We created dog breeds, and in doing so trained away much of the wild instinct... but not the physiological need that shaped those instincts. And all it takes is one or two feral generations to bring the hunting drive back.

Third refutation is that dogs can digest veggies and grains, so they must be omnivores. I can digest Twinkies... does that make me a twinkavore? The fact that dogs can digest and utilize nutrients from non-meat sources is what makes them "opportunistic carnivores" rather than "obligate carnivores." They CAN eat any of a number of things, but meat based nutrition is the bulk of their necessary intake. A dog fed a corn based diet like Science Diet will have a stool up to 70% bulkier than a dog fed a grain-free diet, and microscopic analysis of the larger feces will reveal the majority of the feces passed is undigested corn meal. The same is true of wheat. Most raw feeders include vegetables in their raw diets to simulate the stomach contents of prey animals and to offer additional nutrition... the same way that even wolves in the wild will eat their prey's stomach contents and have been observed eating wild berries and grasses. It's just supplemental nutrition. Also, followers of raw diets generally don't feed a proper ratio of muscle meat to organ meat to bone, so supplemental nutrition is necessary to support proper heath. That doesn't mean that dogs are omnivores, and should get their vitamin D from mushrooms rather than from a good liver.

The next argument is that feral dogs scavenge, so they must be omnivores. The reality is that feral dogs scavenge because they are opportunistic. If the opportunity arises for a dog to get a free meal, and said free meal is savory enough, they will go for it... but not ALL feral dogs are scavengers, by trade. A lot of it depends on the geographic location, concentration of human habitation, and availability of prey animals. Also, one has to take into consideration the degree of feral reversion. A feral dog living on the streets of Calcutta is going to behave quite differently than the feral dogs I grew up with in the open expanses of the rural American Great Plains. And the packs of feral dogs I came to know through my childhood were more predatory than the native coyotes. These dogs were BRUTAL, and would hunt and eat just about anything... and would bypass several garbage cans to get at the chicken coop or rabbit hutches.

And your fifth and final point is that dogs are always evolving, always changing. I agree with that. However, I don't think that nearly enough change has occurred in their internal anatomy and processes to change their classification from opportunistic carnivore to omnivore.

And regarding my posting history, and allegations of scaring folks and being inflammatory... I'm sorry you feel that way. The reality is, many of the dogs (and cats) we see in clinics are suffering from food allergies. I'm not sure where you got your 10% food allergy statistic, but according to veterinary texts, 30% of dogs suffering from allergies are reacting to an ingredient in their food. Clinically, I honestly believe that more in the neighborhood of fifty percent of the allergy sufferers we see in the vet clinic are reacting to the foods they are eating. And the most allergenic ingredients in pet food, in descending order of number of sufferers, is beef, corn, wheat, soy, dairy, chicken, and eggs. Those seven ingredients account for almost all of the food allergy cases we see on a daily basis. And these days, most dog foods are either chicken or lamb based, meaning that beef allergies are on a decline.
As far as my mentions of roadkill being a possible ingredient in rendered products put in pet food... it's a reality. Roadkill is rendered along with downer livestock. And the rendering companies aren't going broke... quite the opposite. County road crews pay the rendering companies to haul away roadkill, then the animal feed companies pay the rendering companies for the rendered fat and other products. They are making profit at both ends of the business. And I know this for a fact, having worked for a rendering company in years past and still having contacts in the business. The commercial meat industry is just as bad, and the horrible things I post about by-products are very much a reality.

Thank you for the time invested in your last post.
I honestly have never seen such long posts in a forum-Honda, gardening, dogs or otherwise. It should make interesting reading for people. I know I must have offended you but that is part of forums and the beauty of the net. To raise issues and clarify them. I answered a question of yours about why I thought dogs are omnivores. I also prefaced it with the word RATIONALIZE as I am not a vet. You asked and I answered. By the way, though your username has the letters vt you've never claimed to be a vet.
However, you also raised my hackles in your first response with terms like "verbatim" as if you thought I was lying or stupid. The first sentence in my rating was a warning to check ingredients, remember? I did not respond in kind to your tone of condescension. My point about you sometimes being inflammatory is evident in that post.

My points about omnivorous dog diets are still correct. I'm not concerned about taxonomy but necessity and reality. Though I don't purchase it, millions of people buy and thus their dogs eat a poor and omnivorous diet and live long happy lives. Million don't have Petsmarts nearby nor can afford 50$ dog food nor need to. Many millions more worldwide feral or not do the same. I of course agree with you that stuff in some dog foods is nasty but these same things are/were fed to animals we eat. Mad Cow is a prime example of this practice gone wrong.
Since, as you say, dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years do you suggest their diets were superior to the foods available now? I don't believe that the Basset breed has obtained ideal carnivorous nutrition for the last 500 years and suppose they've been scrounging all that time just like mine does now when it can.. In my mind this overrides the import of their genus and species as they've survived and flourished. Dogs, like corn, dairy cattle and many other beasts wouldn't exist but for humans and in the dog's case, humans have dictated their diets and that usually hasn't been ideal carnivore nutrients , but scraps. Taxonomy and teeth aside, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Your perspective would suggest that since we're descended from primates we should ideally be herbivores. Or at least eat a Cro-Magnon diet.
You also help make my point: many people rely on junk food daily but often out of necessity. They don't have cars nor supermarkets nearby. It's not ideal but they can still be healthy and happy. I see this daily as West Mi is an increasingly poor area, maybe not like Seattle.
As I said, I live in Michigan, a place teaming and overrun with game, certianly more per square mile than the Plains and warmer, wetter and more lush yet I've never read anything about packs of feral dogs hunting and consuming game. Locals would surely know of it like they know how deer are eating our ornamentals and indiginous wildflowers to the nub let alone our veggies. Do a google news search about dog predation and you will find nothing, zero.
Again, a point: do a google news search of "couple killed by dogs" or something like that. Today an article was published about a couple in the Southeast who were killed by a pack of dogs. It stated that the bodies were horribly disfigured but mentioned nothing of them eating their flesh. Had it been the case, it certainly would have been written about as sensationalism sells. Perhaps they'd been raised by Micheal Vick.
As to the %s you question, I use the net like everyone- to find information and WE know anything can be proven or disproved from info on the net just like quoting the Bible.
If you are indeed a vet, and I trust that you are, you are more responsible than I to be knowledgeable and accurate and some of your statements are definitely wrong while I made clear I was speculating and not a vet.

The first, and again I'm sorry if I offend you is about the proportions you write of in your analysis of the Authority in your area. You refute it in your own words. You stated that your local formula is a proportion of 2 parts protein to 5 parts carbohydrate. You can't possibly know this because ingredients are listed in order of predominance, ie, each successive ingredient is in lesser quantities. Your analysis presumes that each protein and carbohydrate is added in equal quantities. You can't even figure it out by subtracting crude protein, fat and moisture since you don't know the actual % of fillers or any other ingredient for that matter.
Secondly, you consider brewers rice a carb. This rice is a waste product of the brewing process where the carbs are used to make beer and the like. It is thus a filler more than a carb and can't be given equal status as sorghum, corn or brown rice. Thus, even if you knew the ingredient %s you'd still be off about the carb/protein proportions.

Thirdly, you said you feed your dogs some very high quality foods yet on another sight where you have a profile, Zoology (sic)?, you claim to have 12 pets, none of which are dogs, only reptiles and cats. Do you have dogs?
Finally, if you feed a varying mixture of these foods don't you defy conventional wisdom that pets should be transitioned from one food to the next, even if those foods are mixtures of brands? If you mix brands and can't know their nutrient proportions how do you know your dogs get ideal nutrition?
We've thrown a lot at each other, a lot to consider. I don't take it personally and hope you don't. This sort of discourse helps things not hurts, I've learned a lot. I'm tired of writing. send a follow up if you like.

Jon

Don't worry about it, I'm not offended in the least. After 20 years or so on the internet, I know not to take these online forums and discussions too seriously or take things to heart. A large part of the problem arises simply because the written word can't often convey proper emotion. I am often accused of being pompous, simply because my writing style is rather cold and clinical. I couldn't really change that if I tried... I had teachers telling me the same thing all the way back to grade school, and for whatever reason, I am not able to loosen up my written discourse consistently.

Now, let me clear up a misconception that I forgot to address previously. I am NOT a veterinarian. My handle here is "sheltervt." The meaning is "Shelter Veterinary Technician." I am a veterinary technician with twenty two years of experience in clinics, shelters, sanctuaries, and laboratories. Similarly, I started my educational journey to my first degree almost two and a half decades ago. I now have earned three degrees and multiple certifications from five of the 30 American veterinary schools. I have continued schooling throughout my career, recently decided that a MS was not enough, and am returning to school for my final degree, a doctorate in Animal Science with a specialty in companion animal nutrition. I am not a veterinarian, as of yet, and even when I get my DVM certification, I will not be a conventional vet.

I'm not going to revisit the omnivore vs. carnivore discussion again. I've really said all there is to say regarding that, and anythign further would merely be a perverse form of beating my head against a wall. The biggest issue is that I am speaking in textbook terms, and you are speaking colloquially and anecdotally... and we are each right, about some points, in our own ways.

On to other arguments: The proportion of meat to grain in Authority food. I didn't mean to imply that the ratio of meat to carbs was 2:5 in my post. I was just indicating that there are two meat ingredients and five grain ingredients in the first ten items listed, a greater NUMBER of grains, not necessarily a greater overall QUANTITY.

Regarding brewer's rice: it IS a carb. Brewer's rice isn't the afterproduct of the brewing process, but small, broken fragments of refined white rice that, in addition to being used to make a mash for distillation, are used in pet food.

You mention another website where I have a profile listing 12 pets, none of them dogs. I have to assume that you are talking about Zootoo.com, a site that I joined quite some time ago with the original goal of giving advice on reptile and aquarium care issues. When I created my profile there, I did so with that in mind, and merely listed a small fraction of my reptiles and two of my cats before losing interest in adding a gigantic list of pets. In reality, my home could be considered a zoo, as I have five dogs, five cats, nine birds, 40 small mammals, nearly 160 reptiles, and 57 or 58 aquariums. Yes, I have dogs. My life would be incomplete without them.

And yes, I feed an ever-changing mix of superpremium kibbles, and yes, that is in defiance of conventional wisdom. But then again, my very choices in pet food brands and formulas are against the grain of conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom in pet nutrition seems mired in the dark ages. In a world where commercial pet foods have only been in place for about a century, you'd think that conventional wisdom of nutritional theory would be more fluid, more contemporary, more cutting edge... but it isn't. It's stagnant, stuck in the same old brands, the same old formulas. That's part of the problem with commercial pet foods in general. My feeding regime is in keeping with modern nutritional theory as taught by some of the greatest minds in companion animal clinical and practial nutrition. I use a base of one particular food, then mix in smaller portions of several different brands of food. Every time I buy food, the mix changes. It provides a variety of flavors for my dogs and cats, as well as ensures that all nutritional bases are covered. It also prevents the possibility of developing allergies due to an overexposure to particular ingredients, and has the added benefit of keeping the animal's digestive tract more amenable to change, less likely to react adversely, and functioning at optimal levels.

Again, I haven't taken anything to heart, and I haven't been offended. I've been having discussions like this for most of the past 12 years, since I took my nutritionist certification and consultation vocation online and began dispensing my often heretic views on pet nutritional needs.

Thanks for your reply! I have been told I'm somewhat arrogant and combative throughout my life. I recognize that the way you write is due to brute intelligence where you simply think "above" people and can quickly lose patience with ignorance. There is ignorance aplenty about dog diets. I can also tell that due to your knowledge and care for animals you are trying to improve their lot by working online and that's admirable. I've had to stifle my words my whole life and make great efforts at it but am not always successful. That's why I always find good, and put in in words, when I write of others. My compliments don't always compensate for my combativeness but that's the best I can do sometimes. I know I am right about some stuff and wrong too including these posts. Like I said, your efforts online are important and I agree that dogs are carnivore by classification.
Thanks again for this discourse. I've been corrected about some things and learned a LOT!

Jon

To Sheltervt and anyone having gotten this far in this forum thread:
I followed his advice and checked out Diamond Naturals.
He's right about it, it has excellent ingredients IS locally available at Ag stores and even Menards and right now can be bought for $30 for a 44# bag- a temporary Diamond promotion( 10% more free). Though it has markedly better ingredients it's cheaper per lb than either of my previous dog foods! I'm buying today ( to get the promotion) and will transition my Basset to it by using up the Maxximum and mixing with Authority till that's gone. Maybe what he said about varying their foods will HELP my dog's digestion and not cause any dietary trauma. Sorry Petsmart.
Jon